Nelson & His World

This silver Nile medal was offered for sale on ebay though the sale has already ended with, apparently, no bidders. The dealer seems to be reputable with 100% positive feedback and ebay is a lively market place for this kind of purchase. Why was there no interest in buying this, I wonder.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1798-lord-nelson- ... 1e5ba1465f

Anna,

I agree, it seems strange that there was no interest in the medal at all – even though they are probably not that rare seeing there must have been a quite a few lieutenants at the Nile, besides Jack Aubrey!

I would have had it! I haven't looked for Nelson stuff on ebay for a while - better keep checking more regularly!

Caitlin

Me too!

It occurs to me that perhaps the seller had a private offer and withdrew it from sale. It's against ebay rules, but nevertheless.......

I guess I would have paid a few pounds to have it is a curio.

But the semi-literate/erroneous description makes me feel very sceptical.

And I would want some better proof that it really is made of silver.

Surely if it was then the seller would have set the start price at the bullion value or higher?

MB

This may be old hat, but . . .
I have a Gilt Nile medal with a dark blue ribbon, issued to Petty Officers, which came through Spinks & Co some 20 years ago. I thought the depiction of the lead up to the battle looked different from all the accounts I had seen and then I read in a catalogue:-
‘Mayo, (Medals & Decorations 1, 178-9) states, “the topography of the reverse is inaccurate, since the land shown on the right should really be on the left, the promontory at the end which stands the town of Aboukir forming the western side of the Bay of Aboukir, in which the battle took place, and not the eastern. The sun is also wrongly placed. This mistake has probably arisen from the engraver having neglected to transpose the position of the objects when sinking the die”.’
But even reversing it he had got it totally wrong or perhaps someone in N&HW can clarify it.

A few years back I had to go to a Cavalry Officers wedding and I think the invitation stated Dress No 1 and medals to be worn. Being a non-military landlubber I wore a DJ and the Nile Medal and believe it or not the lads with their Balkan Medals, swords and spurs were quite fascinated by it. I would rather have worn the family one of Alexander Ball but it meant breaking into the Nelson cabinet at the NMM!!

The picture below is of my Gilt Davidson’s Nile medal and the Silver one referred to on Anna’s thread.
EMP (or E for Anna)

Thought you might like to see Alexander Ball and his Nile medal.
EMP

Many thanks for those great images, EMP - or may I call you E?

Mark: ebay dealers often take a chance with genuine stuff and start at a low price because ebay offers free listing for items with a 99p start price; if your start price is above 99p you have to pay a percentage of the final sale price. Sometimes, general dealers who aren't experts but know how to turn a penny, will pick up items they don't know much about and will bank on the experts recognising the real thing (or asking sharp questions about it) and fighting it out between them and pushing up the price. If it's a dud, they won't bid. This may, in fact, be genuine, but for some reason, hasn't been picked up by bidders; or, as I suggested, he might have done an 'off site' deal; it happens. (Apologies to him if I'm wrong!)

There are heaps of fakes on ebay but buyers have several remedies: you can ask the seller for a refund. If you know what you're talking about and they don't, they'll usually agree. If they don't agree, you can open a SNAD dispute (significantly not as described) and ebay will refund you. In the case of fake modern goods - handbags etc. - you can report the seller to Trading Standards.

I think the Nile medal itself is actually worthy of comment, other than for the interest shown (or not shown) in the saleroom, and believe there has been some speculation as to what some of the images, that EMP mentions, actually mean.

The whole idea for the medal came from Alexander Davison himself, an old acquaintance of Nelson and who became the Admiral's prize agent following the Nile. However the former's largess was not, as many may have thought, entirely out of the kindness of his heart! Besides being a man of business, Davison was also an enthusiastic freemason and it is believed that many of the images on the medal have masonic meanings – but not, it seems, as many as there might have been! To produce the medals Davison went into partnership with Matthew Boulton, the latter producing them at his factory in Soho, Birmingham, but problems arose when Boulton complained about the amount of Masonic imagery on the original design for the medal, believing that the historic aspect of the medal should be better represented and promoted. It was modified somewhat, apparently much to Davison's chagrin, even though some of the imagery remained (such as the figure of Hope, and the arms of the anchor, poking out from behind the shield and likened to the end of a coffin, both suggestive of freemasonry.) Boulton then sent the design drawings to the marine artist John Clevely to authenticate the accuracy of the battle scene depicted.

However, whilst Clevely saw to it that the nautical aspects were correct (and I think we can assume here that he viewed the drawings the right way round, ie. with Aboukir Bay, the anchored French fleet, the Island and the setting sun on the left, and with Nelson's fleet attacking from the right), the belief is that they were transposed at the last moment by Davison himself, in order that he should have the last say! (By this time the design process was very likely 'irreversible'!) This also meant that what we assume to be the setting sun in the west, is actually a rising one in the east - another piece of Masonic imagery, and another piece of 'one-upmanship' on Davison's part!

According to 'Nelson's Purse', by Martin Downer (from where the above details come) there were to be 7,000 medals struck in total, 25 in gold, 150 in silver, 300 in copper gilt, 525 in copper and 6,000 in bronze (which was copper, with a special purple-brown finish devised by Boulton.) The order included a surplus, for Davison's own use and, of course, only fifteen of the gold medals were for the members of the Egyptian Club, as the captains came to be known. However before production the plain copper example was dropped, the 525 recipients also being given those of copper gilt. Davison spent about £2,000 in their production, an expense he no doubt thought worthwhile in light of the other 'advantages' he had engineered! In a letter to Nelson, Davison states that the gold medals were for himself and the other captains, the silver for lieutenants and 'officers of rank', the copper gilt for the warrant officers and 'inferior officers', and the bronzed copper for the seamen.

So it would seem there were 150 silver medals awarded for lieutenants and 'officers of rank', and the medal at auction is obviously assumed to be one of those. However, Mark has questioned the fact that it is actually silver and I have another query. Why is there no hole for a ring, from which to hang it round the neck or from a buttonhole? This would seem rather odd, since one would have expected it. I am speculating here, but I am further wondering: a) if the 'medal' is actually not one at all, but a copy or a test die; or b) could it actually be either one of the copper gilt or bronzed copper examples (although it perhaps doesn't look like the latter). The officers would have been expected to wear theirs with the uniform, but what about the men? They had no uniform and thus were more likely to have kept it with their possessions, and in that case a ring for suspending it would surely have been uneccessary.

I also have another query. Why is the design of Captain Ball's medal substantially different from that of Davison and Boulton?

I would seem to have partly answered my own question, in that Ball's medal was not made by Davison/Boulton, but by Lewis Pingo, who worked in London, and who is plainly given as the medal's maker in EMP's post. The design is also substantially different:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lewis-pingo-2

That presumably means then that: Davison/Boulton may not have been responsible for all of the medals; begs the question as to whether Ball somehow 'missed out' on the Davison Boulton medals and another was made for him by Lewis; Ball didn't like the Davison/Boulton medal and substituted another he approved of.

Kester, Ball's medal is the 'official' Admiralty Naval Gold Medal issued to flag officers and captains only, for battles such as St Vincent, the Nile & Trafalgar.

Davison's Nile medal was issued without any hole drilled in it, so there is no problem with the eBay medal in that respect, but I agree with Mark that you can't tell whether it is silver from the photo. With photos of medals there is often a colourcast which makes bronze look like silver and vice versa.

I have never tried to figure out the topography of the battle scene on the medal, but I'm sure between us here on the forum we can sort it out. The first thing that strikes me is that reversing the design certainly doesn't work - that would result in the British fleet entering the wrong side of the bay and attacking the French fleet from the wrong end! I shall take a closer look!

Tony,
You took the words out of my mouth!
I even did a Photoshop reversal of the centre and replaced in the original only to find the French fleet facing the wrong way and Nelson's van heading between the French line and their Frigates but I am ready to stand corrected.

Ed (EMP)

Tony,

Thanks for your reply, shedding some light on the problem.

Ok, so Alexander Ball's medal is the official Admiralty one, but why then did Davison have 25 of his own design, made in gold, for Nelson and his ship's captains? It seems that either did not know of the Admiralty medal, which seems unlikely, or (seemingly much more likely) he wanted everyone to know of his largess! On the face of it, that would mean then that Nelson and all the captains should have had two medals!

Issuing the medals without a hole drilled in it makes sense and it was up to the individual to alter it if he wished. (I also came across another of Davison's Nile medals on another auction site, which was more obviously the bronze version, which was also not drilled.)

As to whether the topography of the battle scene was reversed or not, I'm just going by what it said in the book and seemingly the actions taken at the time! On the face of it I agree with you, and Davison's extraordinary antics would seem less than clever!

Here is the Naval Chronicle’s explanation (Vol 2, 1799) of what the medal shows:
‘The reverse represents the French fleet at anchor in the Bay of Aboukir, and the British Fleet advancing to the attack, the fortified islands in the enemy's van, the four frigates that were moored within the line to cover their flank, and the gun-boats near the islands; the setting sun, the coast of Egypt, the mouth of the Nile, and the castle of Aboukir'.

Here is my own interpretation of the topography shown on the medal:

Apart from the setting sun definitely being in the wrong place, it seems a surprisingly accurate representation, viewed roughly from the northwest, but with a rather wider ‘panoramic’ field of view that would need a revolving camera, or a bit of photoshop style ‘stitching’ to accomplish. We should note that Robert Clevely’s design did not include the setting sun. That was added at a later stage.

Here is a contemporary map, with a ‘zoom’ capability: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nels ... /print.htm The castle shown in the insert is remarkably similar to the castle on the medal (I’m afraid you need to take a magnifying glass to the medal!). Both have a large fortified tower on the left and a thin minaret on the right. Zoom in on the insert to see ‘Monsr. Poussieulque, the French Commissary viewing the Engagement from the Top of the Castle’. Not surprisingly, he looks very agitated!

Note that most of the contemporary maps are ‘upside down’ with north to the bottom.

Here is the area in Google Maps: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&h ... 03561&z=11
Note that what has been interpreted as the mouth of the Nile is just a small outlet from Lake Idku/Etke. The branch of the Nile is about 10 miles further east and emerges at the eastern tip of the bay. Was it any different 200 years ago?

Here are a couple more maps:

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Map-of-Eg ... 82565_.htm NB Some of the brown areas are shoals, not islands.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... PW4704.jpg

I think the comment in Mayo about the topography is wrong. He seems to have incorrectly interpreted the towers and buildings in the distance (top left) as the town of Aboukir. I am not sure what they are supposed to be – possibly the town of Idku? One of the contemporary maps marks stone buildings and mosques at the eastern end of the bay.

I think the topography is substantially correct and it is just the addition of the sun that is wrong – either it is setting in the east, or rising in the evening, or is added by Davison as a Masonic allusion as Martyn Downer suggests.

What do you think, Ed?

Yes, that's what I think, Kester - the medals are inscribed around the rim: 'FROM ALEXr DAVISON ESQr ST. JAMES'S SQUARE - A TRIBUTE OF REGARD'. Nobody was left in any doubt! And Nelson did wear both medals - why wouldn't he?