Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:36 pm 
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http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the- ... -trafalgar

I have just seen a trailer for this programme which is to be shown on Channel 4 on Monday week.

I believe it is one of a four-part series on "foreigners" who have contributed to Britain's military successes.

MB


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:06 am 
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I just read the brief review.

I see the point they are making - but I think they went a bit over the top with the following statement.

Quote:
If they defeated the entire Combined Fleet, even the humblest sailor might become the equivalent of a millionaire.


:) :)

MB


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:33 am 
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Mark,

I haven't seen the programme, but I'd be charitable and say that to a seaman at the time it might seem like being a millionaire! :D

I might have a go at the online game later, when I have time! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:25 am 
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Devenish wrote:
that to a seaman at the time it might seem like being a millionaire! :D
Kester

Excellent!

Much better way of putting it. :)

Devenish wrote:
I might have a go at the online game later, when I have time! :shock:


I had a little dabble with the game. I have never really got into computer games so started out thinking "This is impossible!". But bit by bit started getting used to it.

Might have another go on Wednesday afternoon if things get particularly dire - if you get my drift!!

MB


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Mark Barrett wrote:
Might have another go on Wednesday afternoon if things get particularly dire - if you get my drift!!

MB


Mark,

I think we'll be moving out to our cottage that day, but you never know! Maybe I should practice! :?

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:37 pm 
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There's some interesting information on prize money in the biography of William Beatty I mentioned on the 'Trafalgar Surgeon' thread -one of the biggest hauls ever captured.

Beatty was serving in 'Alcmene' on the occasion when 'Alcmene', 'Ethalion', 'Naiad' and 'Triton' captured two Spanish ships, the 'Santa Brigida' and the 'Thetis' which together were carrying £661,206 in gold bullion, as well as a valuable cargo of cochineal, cocoa, sugar and dyes. £652,000 of prize money was distributed: £40,730 to each of the four captains; £5,091 to each lieutenant; warrant officers (including Beatty) got £2,468 each; the midshipmen £791 each and the seamen £132 each.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:24 pm 
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I believe Henry Digby was one of those captains.

I am sure I was told once that right up to WWII the Digby family still had bags of coins that came from those ships.

During WWII they donated them to the war effort.

They just retained one of each type of coin - which the family still has to this day.

I hope I haven't garbled that story - but it was closely along those lines.

MB


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:44 pm 
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I'm afraid I didn't see this - a bit pressured at the moment. No doubt it will be repeated.

Any comments?

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Nothing dramatically new for me - but I found it an enjoyable programme.

One thing I want to check.

For a couple of the men they seemed to know which gun they served on in the Battle. This suggested that they had the "Quarter Bill" for Bellerophon. These Quarter Bills listed the places the men were to serve during an action. They had no official status and almost all have been lost - although a part of one is reproduced in Brian Lavery's "Nelson's Navy".

So I am fascinated to know if the Quarter Bill for Bellerophon at Trafalgar has somehow survived. Or did they get that information from some other source??

Unfortunately I can't yet access the programme on "4ondemand" so not sure yet whether any mention was actually made of the Quarter Bill.

Something I will follow up if and when time allows.

MB

P.S. Tonight's programme is "The Untold Battle of Britain". Hoping to take a look at that.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:18 pm 
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Hmmm - hardly the 'untold' story! I've heard/read about Peter Jansen, the white slave, several times. It was quite interesting though.

They did have a journal written by Cumby that has 'never been published before' - maybe some of the information came from there.

Caitlin


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:34 pm 
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The subject of the different nationalities serving in the British fleet was certainly deserving of a TV programme, and it was interesting, but I must admit that I was very irritated by the hype about the programme, both in the trailers and in the programme itself. The diverse make up of the Royal Navy and also its attitude towards black seamen has been well documented for years. See for example Michael Lewis, Social History of the Navy, 1960, and NAM Rodger, The Wooden World, 1986. In fact the programme stated that there could never be black commissioned officers, failing to mention Captain John Perkins who retired in 1805, was a mulatto and may have been born a slave [NAM Rodger].

Some of the dramatic reconstructions were less than convincing, and describing the carronade as Britain's 'secret weapon' seemed a bit OTT. They showed the British guns being fired with a slow match, when in fact British adoption of the flintlock was one of the reasons why British gunnery was superior in the battle. The programme used commentary by experts such as Brian Lavery and Andrew Lambert, but perhaps they were not asked for advice on the dramatisation!

Surprisingly, I don't think the film mentioned the huge contribution of the Irish (OK, not 'foreigners', but worth a mention!). There were only about 7,500 English seamen (excluding marines) at Trafalgar, while there were over 3,500 Irish seamen.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Thanks for that, Tony. I wonder if the BBC would have made the same sort of errrors that you mention in this Channel 4 production. I know the 'times they are a-changin'' but the BBC's meticulous attention to historical detail is, or was, renowned. Even a fictional programme, like the famous 'Pride and Prejudice' c 1996 was produced with an almost fanatical attention to detail; they even produced a book describing the depth of research into costume, food, music etc.

Are there any more biographical details of Captain Perkins available? There must be an engrossing backstory (and maybe an historical novel/documentary) there.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:22 pm 
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I haven't looked into the story of Captain Perkins before, but it looks like he definitely deserves a film to himself - quote: 'he annoyed the enemy more than any other officer'! Here is his obituary from the Naval Chronicle (1812):
Quote:
January 27, at Kingston, in the Island of Jamaica, John Perkins, Esq. a captain in the R.N. We have no account at what period he entered the service; but about the time of the American war he obtained the rank of lieutenant, and then commanded the Punch schooner. During his command of that vessel, and several others, he annoyed the enemy more than any other officer, by his repeated feats of gallantry, and the immense number of prizes he took. His know ledge of the different ports, &r. in the West Indies was, perhaps, seldom equalled, and never surpassed; and that he exerted this to the great advantage of himself and Jamaica, by the capture of the enemy's privateers and merchantmen, is universally known. During a long series of gallant actions, in the command of small vessels, it may be supposed that he ran many risks of being captured by the enemy ; hut his good fortune never forsook him, and was particularly exemplified at Santo Domingo ; for during a peace he went to that island, and, whilst on shore at Jeremie, was detained, and cruelly confined, on the pretence that he had supplied arms to the blacks, but, in fact, through malice for his activity against the trade of that island. An idea may be formed of the annoyance he gave by the circumstance of their condemning him to death, contrary to all law and justice, as soon as they had him in their power. He was most providentially saved, on the very day he was to have been executed, by Captain (now Admiral) T.M. Russel. This circumstance is fully detailed in the NAVAL CHRONICLE, Vol. XVII. page 458, in the life of that officer. He was posted in 1800; and commanded, at the commencement of the present war, the Tartar frigate, of 32 guns, on the Jamaica station. In this vessel, whilst cruising off Santo Domingo, with the Vanguard and Bellerophon, in July 1803, he felt in with the Duquesne, a French 74, and two brigs of 16 guns each ; and had it not been for the superior sailing of the Tartar, and Captain Perkins's bravery, the Duquesne would have escaped ; he kept her engaged, by raking her, until the Vanguard and Bellerophon came up, when she instantly struck, as also the two brigs. The Tartar was ordered home shortly after; and Captain Perkins quitted the command to remain in the island, as, being afflicted with an asthmatic complaint, a cold climate would not have agreed with his constitution. He continued till about 1806 or 7, and then came home, to solicit employment. Their lordships, we have been informed, offered him a command either in the Channel or Mediterranean, which he declined, for the reason above Given, and soon after returned to Jamaica, where he resided until his death.

There is a very detailed Wikipedia entry on him, with numerous references here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perki ... officer%29

It is interesting that his entire service was on the Jamaican station (which suggests that perhaps the Admiralty were unaware he was of mixed race), and that he was promoted by Sir Peter Parker, by Rodney and by Hyde Parker.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:21 am 
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Interesting story about Captain Perkins, Tony. Thanks for this, I'd never heard of him before.

Yes the Channel 4 programme was ok but as has been pointed out here, the use of the slow match to fire the cannons annoyed me. Surely most of the guns crews would also have been stripped to the waist and had something tied around their ears to guard against the cannon noise (as pointed out by my 12 year old daughter who is a big Nelson fan).

I think the battle scenes were also filmed on the Trincomalee, as were the "Battle Surgeon" below deck scenes.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Untold Battle of Trafalgar"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:53 pm 
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I've been doing some research for a book for a few years about Perkins.

I've written a wikipedia article about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perki ... officer%29

And an article for blackpast.
http://www.blackpast.org/?q=gah/perkins ... punch-1812

There's also an article in the BASA newsletter coming out (hopefully in November)

Also, hopefully I'm going to get a publisher to publish my fictional account of his life. One day.

I hope you enjoy the article, feel free to ask any questions and if I can't answer them I'll hopefully be able to point you in the right direction.

Ian


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