Nelson & His World

As a result of a plea from the Society of Antiquaries, and an alert from the Nelson Society, this is an urgent appeal for your help – Time is running out and your action in the next few days could make all the difference.

The church of St Mary the Virgin, Selling, in Kent, is proposing to 'dispose' of the Minotaur's Union Flag from the Battle of Trafalgar. If this goes up for auction, it is almost inevitable that it will go to an overseas private buyer as did the Spartiate's flag. As far as I know, this is the only Union flag from Trafalgar remaining in Britain. A flag from the captured Neptuno is also up for disposal.

<Edit: Update - Since this thread was started, the situation has changed considerably, with the church issuing a statement here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1259&p=7598#p7598 The issue is now that the church has proposed to sell or donate the flags to the National Maritime Museum, but has not consulted the family who put the flags in the church, who wish the flags to be retained in Selling.>

When the Minotaur returned to Britain a year after Trafalgar, master's mate Stephen Hilton took home with him the Minotaur's Union Flag flown at the battle, and a flag believed to be from the captured Neptuno which struck to the Minotaur and was taken in tow. (The cable broke during the storm, and the Neptuno was later retaken by the Spanish crew, but was wrecked outside Cadiz. Most of the prize crew from the Minotaur survived, were taken prisoner by the Spanish and exchanged at Gibraltar shortly afterwards.) The flag from the Neptuno is actually an Austrian ensign rather than a Spanish ensign, and my theory is that Stephen Hilton grabbed the wrong flag from a flag locker, as the colours are similar.

The Hilton family have long lived at Selling in Kent, and the family later gave or loaned the flags to the parish church. Either way, the intention was clearly that the flags should be on display in the church, where there is a Hilton Chapel with memorials and furnishings provided by the family and where the flags were hung. The flags are an integral part of the history and heritage of the church, the parish, the Hilton family and the people of Selling. They are of course a national treasure of supreme historical importance, but also a unique link between the people of Kent and the Battle of Trafalgar.

The disposal is opposed by members of the Hilton family, who donated or loaned the flags to the church. The Hilton family are seeking proper consultation from the church with a view to producing a plan which incorporates the intentions of the original donor.

The disposal appears to run completely contrary to every aspect of the Church of England's own policy. The church is the custodian of such treasures for future generations, and should not sell or dispose of any item that is integral the history and heritage of the church and the parish. In this case the church is also the custodian of the flags for the nation, and it seems nothing short of scandalous that the church appears to be abdicating its responsibility and simply views the flags as an inconvenience.

John Owen, a Fellow of the Society of Antiquarians, has said the church's handling of the matter was "covert and shoddy", having advertised the proposal with only a small notice in the church. The public notice advertised an application for a faculty to dispose of “two flags”, with no statement of their significance, and no reason for disposing of them. Attempts to obtain information from the church on their intentions have been unsuccessful, and on the face of it, and in the absence of any explanation from the church, this has the appearance of a attempt to bypass proper consideration of the proposal.

The Nelson Society has made an objection, but anybody who is concerned about this should make their individual concerns or objections known.

Here are some snippets of information:
Battle to keep flags in the village: http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/Battle-flag ... story.html
Plea from Society of Antiquarians: http://www.sal.org.uk/salon/index_html?id=1400#section7

The Minotaur's Union Flag:


Here is another photo of the flag hanging in the church at Selling: http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/images/loca ... 146472.png

The church has made an 'application for a faculty' for the disposal, and there is a formal process for registering objections, which ends on Thursday 15 September. Here are the contact details for objections to the 'disposal', or if you wish to express your concern:

To oppose the faculty application for the disposal of two Trafalgar flags, please write setting out your objections by 15 September, citing ‘Ref. 2062’, to:

Mr Owen Carew-Jones
Registrar
Canterbury Diocesan Registry
Minerva House
5 Montague Close
London
SE1 9BB

Registrar email: ocj@wslaw.co.uk
Registrar Direct Tel: 020 7593 5034

General email registry@wslaw.co.uk
General Registry Tel 020 7593 5110 / 0207 593 5148

Fax 020 7593 0314

Objections must be received by 15 September, and must cite ‘Ref. 2062’.

Objections may be sent by email to the Registrar at: ocj@wslaw.co.uk but must include a land address for the objector; otherwise it will not be included in those considered by the Board.

The objector must state their relevant status for raising an objection.

The usual status required for the Board to consider objections in such cases are that the objection is from an organisation or individual with an interest in the relevant artefact,

or from individuals with the following status:

1. membership of the Parish Council for the parish concerned;
2. residency in the parish concerned;

or:

3. membership of a learned Society or other direct involvement in relevant bodies.

When making objections, you might like to consider this guidance on Church policy on the sale of 'treasures' on this page: http://www.churchcare.co.uk/legal.php?GI You will see that this application appears to fail to meet virtually every aspect of the guidance. This document from a different diocese also seems relevant: http://www.diochi.org.uk/downloads/DAC/ ... urches.doc

If you are pushed for time, I'm sure a few words of concern to the registrar would suffice, provided the include your address and your status as detailed above.

Attached for your information is the Nelson Society's letter of objection:


Here is the public notice of the application for the 'disposal':


The church does face genuine problems with the cost of conservation work, security of the flags in the church, and space and environmental conditions for their display, but the solution is not disposal without consultation and with no guarantees for the future of the flags.

England expects...

Please also consider making your views publicly known on this thread, although I appreciate many will want to remain private.

Tony,

I have sent in my objection to the sale of the flags, by e-mail, to Mr Owen Carew-Jones, at Diocesian House. I cited my objections as those already given.

I received a reply from a Mr Kevin Sims, Diocesian Registrar Administrator, to say that an application for a 'Petition of Faculty' from Selling Church, had not yet been received. He asked for an address, so that I may be notified when this happens, at which time I will then be instructed of the procedure to lodge a complaint. I duly obliged and I await the letter.

Than you for bringing this to our attention and imagine it must be particularly painful for you, seeing your particular connections with the flags. Thanks too for posting Nick Slope's forthright letter from the Nelson Society and the guidlines from the Church of England. Even a cursory reading of those, gives the imression that they haven't leg to stand on!

Thanks Kester.

The reply you received from Mr Kevin Sims is complete nonsense. He forwarded to me today the public notice announcing the application which quotes the closing date of 15 September for objections. He did say the notice was 'the Public Notice which we understand is the version displayed by the parish (but cannot guarantee this: we have not, as yet, received a certified copy of what has been displayed - this should happen following the expiry of the 28 day period)'. There seems to be some obfuscation going on, I hope not deliberate.

But I have also had confirmation direct from the registrar, Mr Owen Carew-Jones, that objections should be sent to him by the date specified in the public notice, i.e. 15 September.

Please everyone, do continue to send in objections (if you do indeed object).

Tony,

Well, if that is nonsense, then there must be something going on! Who do you suggest I contact? I sent my e-mail to the General e-mail. Perhaps I should try the Registrar one instead, or do you think that might get to Mr Sims as well?

Yes, as objections should be sent to the registrar, I would use his direct email address ocj@wslaw.co.uk

Thanks for your perseverance, Kester. Do also keep us posted if you ever receive the promised notification - I'm not sure that they know what they are doing at the Church of St Mary the Virgin, Selling.

Tony,

I have this morning done as you suggested, and sent an e-mail direct to the Registrar. We'll see what happens.

I don't think they know what they're doing either, and can see a great deal of opposition over this. To begin with, they don't even seem to know what the Church of England's own guidelines say, as outlined in the link you posted. I also find it rather strange, that the vicar in charge seems to think there is a possiblity that they will be stolen. Why? I have not read anything to suggest that this is likely, and there is nothing I have read so far, to say that any attempt on the flags has been made since they have been in the church. Sounds rather like a weak excuse to me.

Incidentally, I found this website about Selling Church, wanting to know exactly where it was:

http://www.faversham.org/pages/standard ... geID=11110

However, I can find no mention of the flags, which I find rather odd, and only one of the Hiltons. I note that the vicar is referred to as the Priest in Charge. This suggests that he has more than one church to deal with, which is quite common these days, so perhaps the church at Selling is locked much of the time. Perhaps this is the reason why he is afraid of the flags being stolen!

The flags have been removed from the church for the last seventeen years, which is nothing short of a national scandal in itself, depriving the current generation of the opportunity to admire and to honour the men of Kent who fought in the Battle of Trafalgar, a defining moment in British history. These flags form an irreplaceable part of the cultural legacy of our nation, and it would be a tragedy for them to be permanently lost to future generations.

I believe the flags were on display at Deal Maritime Museum for a short period, but it took around 14 years to obtain an estimate of the cost of restoring the flags and of constructing suitable display cases. I believe the estimate was very modest, and the funds could easily be raised, especially with the help of he Nelson Society which has now been offered.

The Spartiate's flag sold for £384,000, including buyer's premium, and clearly there is a security issue for items of such value on display in churches. But the issue can be addressed, and in any case the last resort should be a loan to a local museum, and not outright disposal.

I have updated my original post above to clarify some aspects of the situation. I would particularly like to draw attention to the way the church has handled things. John Owen, a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries, has said the church's handling of the matter was "covert and shoddy", having advertised the proposal with only a small notice in the church. The public notice advertised an application for a faculty to dispose of “two flags”, with no statement of their significance, and no reason for disposing of them. On the face of it, and in the absence of an explanation from the church, this has the appearance of a blatant attempt to bypass proper consideration of the proposal. It also seems to have largely succeeded in keeping this application 'under the radar' until very close to the deadline for objections. The response that you received from the Diocesan Registry is a further development of extreme concern.

I am pleased to say that with a little 'tweeting', this thread received over 300 views yesterday. It would be good if those 300 views turned into 300 objections, but I suspect many will not have the time or the energy to follow it through.

Tony,

Have just looked into my email, to find that mine to Mr Carew-Jones could not apparently be delivered. He would seem to have changed his e-mail address. There could be several explanations as to why.

Tony

Busy week ahead but I will do my best to get something in the post.

Let's face it even one word on a page - Don't - would have to be registered as an objection.

I see the postal address is "Minerva House". Amongst other things the goddess of wisdom I believe. Food for thought!

Unless HM Government/NMM etc will join the fray good luck to the Nelson Society in taking the lead role in this fight. Congratulations to the Chairman for the robust stance he has already taken. Thankfully they have the name, the status, the contacts, and the expertise required at times like this. What a major coup for them if they could prevent this sale going through. I have every faith.

Finally, having said all of that, I confess to some sympathy with the church as regards the security angle. But as said above there are many alternative courses of action. I would love to know what avenues they had explored before deciding on this particular one.

Maybe somebody could offer them a brand new thread on this forum as a "Right to Reply."

They would be guaranteed a courteous reception I feel sure.

MB

Tony,

I would say that it's because his e-mail box is full – and you did say that this thread alone had registered 300 hits! I could try again, but I expect the same to happen.

Other than an e-mail objection however, I doubt a letter from me would get there in time, registered or not. There are added complications in that we are at our cottage at the moment rather than in town and a post office is some way away - and there is no post until Monday!

However I am sure they have been inundated with objections, which would indicate the above reaction to my e-mail!

Mark,

That might perhaps be a good idea of yours, but of course, you'd have to square it with Anna first!

I've just got back from my break and have speed read this thread with its alarming news.

And yes! I am willing, nay eager, for this forum to be used as Campaign HQ to Save the Trafalgar Flags!

Anna,

Welcome back, hope you had a good break. As you see we haven't been idle!

Tony,

I think I have to eat humble pie! I found that I had inadvertently transposed the initials in the e-mail address, from 'ocj', to 'ojc'! Anway have sent the e-mail again, correctly, and as yet have had nothing back – not even a message to say it had failed! So it seems to have gone through.

My apologies if I raised your blood pressure!

Anna, it is the formal Church of England Faculty Jurisdiction process that we are already involved with. The church at Selling has put forward an application to dispose of quote: 'two flags', with no statement of their significance. It seems to be at the second stage of the process and the period for public representations ends this Thursday 15 September, hence the urgency.

Kester, I am relieved to hear we can discount at least the last part of the conspiracy theory! I hadn't dared to suggest it might have been finger trouble! But if you do also want your letter posted, you could email/pm it to me and I could post it for you.

Mark, I am also very keen indeed to hear some explanation from the church, and I do know that there were some efforts a few years ago to find an alternative home for the flags. But the 15 September deadline is too important to allow us to delay any representations.

The latest news is that the 1805 Club is picking up on this issue in robust but constructive fashion.

I shall be writing to object to this outrageous attempt to offload the Trafalgar flags as soon as I return from London on Monday.

I would encourage the hundreds of good people now reading this thread to do all they can to save these national treasures.

And to think I spent an hour in St. James Church, Piccadilly, today - emptying my purse of every penny I could afford for the restoration appeal!