Nelson & His World

It is customary, I believe, for officers of the Royal Navy to remain seated during the Loyal Toast because of the limited headroom aboard ship. How long has this custom been in practice? Would Nelson have sat for the Loyal Toast? Does the rule apply only to toasts drunk aboard ship? Would officers remain seated if ashore, or if in the company of personnel from the other armed forces?

Apologies for my silence: a family wedding and a new grandchild have pre-occupied me in recent days!

Anna,

It would seem as though no one is quite sure who started the tradition! Contenders vary between Charles ll, the period of the Restoration, George lV and William lV (the sailor king), amongst other perhaps more practical theories. I have also heard George lll mentioned, although personally I have heard William lV's name mentioned the most frequently. This is from the RNM, and I would imagine they might know:

http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sh ... _toast.htm

Regarding Nelson (and other officers), if it was either of the first two then surely he (and they) would have sat, if either of the last, then he (but not necessarily they) wouldn't have been able to – although I imagine he would have been there in spirit!

This topic reminded me of the Thomas Davidson painting of the Eve of Copenhagen, which we have discussed before on another thread.

In it Nelson and the officers are depicted as standing, and it crossed my mind that if at that time it was usual to sit for the loyal toast, for the practical reasons given, would they not have been seated for all the other toasts?

The painting therefore begs the questions: a) was Davidson simply unaware of naval protocol? or b) was it the case that this tradition post-dated Nelson's time?

In my mind, the first would have been relatively easy to find out (certainly for an artist of Davison's calibre) and in any case the tradition would probably have been quite widely known. The second answer, and the one to which I am inclined, is that the Royal favour had not then been granted. I may be wrong of course, but if true this then a) it obviously removes the claims of Charles ll and the Restoration, and b) most likely that of the future George 1V, since I believe he is said to have so honoured the Royal Navy in 1811, when he was still the Prince Regent. Surely only the monarch could grant such an honour to his navy? My money is still on William 1V.

Just a thought!

The Davidson picture is very atmospheric - you can sense the energy and enthusiasm of the (standing) officers. I wonder - and this is pure speculation - if they have risen to their feet speedily and spontaneously in response to a toast to the prospect of victory. The fact that Riou rushes to replenish his glass suggests that the toast itself was off the cuff - just the sort of rousing, spur-of-the-moment gesture Nelson would have made.

But all the other points you raise, Kester, are interesting too.

Anna,

As you say, the painting is very atmospheric and you hint at another possibility, that of artistic licence.

The picture is obviously composed, with Riou having his glass refilled in the foreground, set against Nelson and the other officers behind. The mere fact that they are standing, of course adds to the 'spur-of-the-moment' feeling, but it also affords the viewer more than just a 'waist up' view of those present - especially those behind the table, which of course would have included Nelson. However, I am still not convinced that they would have, or comfortably could have, stood, since I'm not sure the deckhead (ceiling) would have been that high.

The only written description of the scene, so far as I know, is that by Colonel Stewart and he wrote that: 'On board of the Elephant, the night of the 1st of April was an important one. As soon as the Fleet was at anchor, the gallant Nelson sat down to table with a large party of his comrades in arms.' You'll note that he wrote 'sat down', and Stewart (I think a reliable source) in his further description of the scene, does not say that they suddenly and spontaneously jumped up again. I would have thought that a man showing his attention to detail would have mentioned it, if it had happened!

I think with good reason you have questioned Davidson's accuracy before, Kester, and the height of the deckhead certainly looks exaggerated. I do suspect that the desired composition rather than anything else has determined whether the figures are standing or sitting. On the other hand, I think the difficulty in standing below deck is often overplayed, and I suspect there would be no problem in the admiral's cabin in most flagships. There is certainly no difficulty in a large group standing in the admiral's cabin of HMS Victory.